合之道·訪談 | 對(duì)話金磚國(guó)家新開發(fā)銀行行長(zhǎng)馬科斯·特洛伊喬,，談合作交流的意義

來源：法國(guó)里昂商學(xué)院時(shí)間：2022-02-28

進(jìn)入“后新冠疫情時(shí)代”,， 全球化發(fā)展面臨著變局,，需要全球共同努力不斷開拓合作，促進(jìn)經(jīng)濟(jì)增長(zhǎng)和社會(huì)發(fā)展的新局,。

當(dāng)我們不得不面對(duì)疫情時(shí),，“韌性”的概念非常恰當(dāng)?shù)馗爬宋覀兯仨毦邆涞钠焚|(zhì)，如今我們要做的是以更系統(tǒng)性的方式探索“合作”的概念。當(dāng)下,， 協(xié)同發(fā)展是大勢(shì)所趨,，能否切實(shí)開展深化、平等地合作,，在當(dāng)前來看應(yīng)該是合作深入推進(jìn)并實(shí)現(xiàn)互利共贏的關(guān)鍵,。中歐論壇創(chuàng)始人、法國(guó)里昂商學(xué)院高級(jí)顧問高大偉先生在準(zhǔn)備《中國(guó)與世界第二卷》期間,，獨(dú)家對(duì)話眾多知名政客,、學(xué)者、企業(yè)家,，就疫情后的合作發(fā)展法則展開談?wù)摗?

近期我們將陸續(xù)推出為期十期的《合之道》系列訪談,，繼《竹之韌》后的在后疫情時(shí)代背景下的高端訪談。

馬科斯·特洛伊喬
Marcos Troyjo
金磚國(guó)家新開發(fā)銀行行長(zhǎng)
President of the New Development Bank

巴西經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)家,、政治學(xué)家,、外交家。現(xiàn)任金磚國(guó)家新開發(fā)銀行行長(zhǎng),，曾任巴西經(jīng)濟(jì)部外貿(mào)及國(guó)際事務(wù)副部長(zhǎng),。特洛伊喬先生也是美國(guó)哥倫比亞大學(xué)金磚四國(guó)實(shí)驗(yàn)室聯(lián)合創(chuàng)始人兼主任。
Mr. Troyjo is a Brazilian economist, political scientist and diplomat. He is President of the New Development Bank. He served as Brazil's Deputy Economy Minister and Special Secretary for Foreign Trade and International Affairs. He co-founded and served as Director of the BRICLab at Columbia University. Q

高大偉：馬科斯,，非常開心來到這里，不用說,，我們背后是繁華的陸家嘴。我們現(xiàn)在位于金磚國(guó)家新開發(fā)銀行的總部,。作為這個(gè)重要機(jī)構(gòu)的領(lǐng)導(dǎo),，你每天都在踐行著合作。那么我想問問你,，馬科斯,，對(duì)你而言合作意味著什么？

DG:Marcos, it's really a great pleasure to be here. I don't want to comment on the backdrop. The backdrop is magnificent. We are at the headquarters of the New Development Bank. You lead this very important institution. And for you on a daily basis, you practice collaboration. But I wanted to ask you, Marcos, what collaboration means for you.

馬科斯·特洛伊喬：非常感謝能有這次機(jī)會(huì),。合作,，對(duì)我而言意味著協(xié)作，意味著齊心協(xié)力,。在新開發(fā)銀行,，巴西、俄羅斯,、印度,、中國(guó)、南非,，這些國(guó)家都是世界上最重要的新興市場(chǎng),，都在追求更好的基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施和可持續(xù)發(fā)展的機(jī)會(huì),，這為國(guó)際合作提供了一個(gè)至關(guān)重要的平臺(tái)。尤其是在當(dāng)下,，我們面臨著公共健康和經(jīng)濟(jì)上的挑戰(zhàn),，而在我看來，目前的局勢(shì)表明我們的國(guó)際合作還遠(yuǎn)遠(yuǎn)不夠,。所以,，如果我們可以建立像新開發(fā)銀行這樣的多邊發(fā)展機(jī)構(gòu)，把不同的國(guó)家聚集在一起,，就共同關(guān)心的問題進(jìn)行合作,，這就是體現(xiàn)合作、協(xié)作和齊心協(xié)力的價(jià)值的最佳實(shí)例,。

MT: Thank you very much for the opportunity. Collaboration, for me, means cooperation. It means working together. And when you have, at the New Development Bank, countries as Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, some of the most important emerging markets in the world, looking for opportunities in infrastructure, in sustainable development, that creates a very important platform for international cooperation. Especially at the current juncture when we have challenges in health, when we have challenges in the economy, and it seems to me that the current juncture is featuring a deficit in terms of international cooperation. So, if we can have multilateral development institutions, such as the NDB, bringing these countries that are so different together to work on issues of common interest, that is the best practical example of the value of cooperation, collaboration and working together.

高大偉：是的,。你剛剛提到了金磚國(guó)家，所以人們也經(jīng)常稱新開發(fā)銀行為金磚銀行,。但嚴(yán)格意義上講,，它叫新開發(fā)銀行，在名稱里有“新開發(fā)”三個(gè)字,。你認(rèn)為在你所做的工作中,，“新開發(fā)”這一概念意味著什么？

DG:Exactly. And you mentioned the BRICS countries. So, people call your institution the BRICS bank. But this is technically the New Development Bank, and in New Development Bank, there is “New Development”. And in your vision of your work, what does this notion of “New Development” mean?

馬科斯·特洛伊喬： 的確,，作為一所由新興經(jīng)濟(jì)體建立的機(jī)構(gòu),，我們是“新”的。但就我們的追求而言,，“新”的概念還包含著很多不同的維度,。其中之一就是要發(fā)展成一個(gè)更加成熟完善的機(jī)構(gòu)。主權(quán)貸款很重要,，但除此之外,，還必須要有其他更具二十一世紀(jì)性質(zhì)的金融服務(wù)，才能解決二十一世紀(jì)的問題,。另外,，我們?cè)诎l(fā)展思維上也必須做到“新”。傳統(tǒng)的發(fā)展方式是將實(shí)體基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施和智能基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施分開的,。我認(rèn)為在未來發(fā)展中,，我們還會(huì)進(jìn)一步創(chuàng)新，我們會(huì)把涉水衛(wèi)生,、鐵路,、能源等傳統(tǒng)問題與其他元素結(jié)合起來，比如連通性和第四次工業(yè)革命的基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施，為人才新時(shí)代提供了基建要素,。如果可以做到這些,，我們就能成為真正的新開發(fā)銀行。

MT: It is true that we are new in the sense that it is an institution set up by emerging economies. But I think in terms of our ambition, becoming new has many other different dimensions. One of them, of course, has to do with becoming more of a complex and sophisticated institution. So, sovereign-backed loans are important, but there are other things, there are other financial services that are more of a 21st century nature that have to be offered to tackle 21st century problems. We must also have to be new in terms of new development thinking. There is a traditional approach to development that separates physical infrastructure from smart infrastructure. And I believe that going forward, we are going to be new in the ways that we can bring together problems that are traditionally classified as water sanitation, railroads, energy, but with other elements like connectivity, the infrastructure for the Fourth Industrial Revolution being there, providing the infrastructure elements for the new age of talent. If we are able to do that, then we are truly going to become a New Development Bank.

高大偉：談到發(fā)展,，人們自然就會(huì)想到進(jìn)步,。你認(rèn)為合作是進(jìn)步最重要的基礎(chǔ)嗎？

DG:Talking about development, clearly, one thinks about progress. Would you say that collaboration is the very foundation for progress?

馬科斯·特洛伊喬： 是的,，合作是進(jìn)步最重要的基礎(chǔ)之一,，沒有合作就難以取得進(jìn)展。因?yàn)闆]有合作,，首先限制了參與者的數(shù)量,，其次也限制了地理范圍。我的意思是,，無論是否愿意,，我們都生活在一個(gè)星球上。顯然,，當(dāng)我們合作時(shí),，所做出的決策可能影響到數(shù)十億的人。所以無論你來自怎樣的文化背景,、處于怎樣的地理位置,，都需要以主動(dòng)、開放的姿態(tài)為共同關(guān)心的問題做出努力,。

MT: It's one of them. It's very difficult to make headway without cooperation. First, because you limit the outreach of the number of players involved. And second, you end up limiting the very geographical scope. I mean, like it or not, we're living in one planet. And obviously, when we're working together, our decisions may impact billions of people. So, it's very important that no matter what your civilizational background is, what your geography is, that you're willing and open to work on those issues in which common interests can be shared.

高大偉：十分感謝我們能有這次交流,，這是為“合之道”系列錄制的。你本人,、你的背景,、你領(lǐng)導(dǎo)的新開發(fā)銀行，都是合作時(shí)代的美好象征,。非常感謝,。謝謝,。

DG:Thank you very much for this conversation. It has been done for a series whose name is A Time of Collaboration. And you, your background, and your institution, you are wonderful symbols of this time of collaboration. So, thank you very much. Obrigado.

馬科斯·特洛伊喬：  謝謝,，我很榮幸。新開發(fā)銀行的宗旨就是合作,。

MT: Thank you so much. It was my pleasure. The New Development Bank is all about working together.