合之道·訪談 | 對話金磚國家新開發(fā)銀行行長馬科斯·特洛伊喬,，談合作交流的意義

來源：法國里昂商學院時間：2022-02-28

進入“后新冠疫情時代”， 全球化發(fā)展面臨著變局,，需要全球共同努力不斷開拓合作,，促進經(jīng)濟增長和社會發(fā)展的新局,。

當我們不得不面對疫情時，“韌性”的概念非常恰當?shù)馗爬宋覀兯仨毦邆涞钠焚|(zhì),，如今我們要做的是以更系統(tǒng)性的方式探索“合作”的概念,。當下， 協(xié)同發(fā)展是大勢所趨,，能否切實開展深化,、平等地合作，在當前來看應該是合作深入推進并實現(xiàn)互利共贏的關(guān)鍵,。中歐論壇創(chuàng)始人,、法國里昂商學院高級顧問高大偉先生在準備《中國與世界第二卷》期間，獨家對話眾多知名政客,、學者,、企業(yè)家，就疫情后的合作發(fā)展法則展開談論,。

近期我們將陸續(xù)推出為期十期的《合之道》系列訪談，繼《竹之韌》后的在后疫情時代背景下的高端訪談,。

馬科斯·特洛伊喬
Marcos Troyjo
金磚國家新開發(fā)銀行行長
President of the New Development Bank

巴西經(jīng)濟學家,、政治學家、外交家?，F(xiàn)任金磚國家新開發(fā)銀行行長,，曾任巴西經(jīng)濟部外貿(mào)及國際事務副部長。特洛伊喬先生也是美國哥倫比亞大學金磚四國實驗室聯(lián)合創(chuàng)始人兼主任,。
Mr. Troyjo is a Brazilian economist, political scientist and diplomat. He is President of the New Development Bank. He served as Brazil's Deputy Economy Minister and Special Secretary for Foreign Trade and International Affairs. He co-founded and served as Director of the BRICLab at Columbia University. Q

高大偉：馬科斯，非常開心來到這里,，不用說,，我們背后是繁華的陸家嘴。我們現(xiàn)在位于金磚國家新開發(fā)銀行的總部,。作為這個重要機構(gòu)的領(lǐng)導,，你每天都在踐行著合作。那么我想問問你,，馬科斯,，對你而言合作意味著什么？

DG:Marcos, it's really a great pleasure to be here. I don't want to comment on the backdrop. The backdrop is magnificent. We are at the headquarters of the New Development Bank. You lead this very important institution. And for you on a daily basis, you practice collaboration. But I wanted to ask you, Marcos, what collaboration means for you.

馬科斯·特洛伊喬：非常感謝能有這次機會,。合作,，對我而言意味著協(xié)作，意味著齊心協(xié)力,。在新開發(fā)銀行,，巴西,、俄羅斯、印度,、中國,、南非，這些國家都是世界上最重要的新興市場,，都在追求更好的基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施和可持續(xù)發(fā)展的機會,，這為國際合作提供了一個至關(guān)重要的平臺。尤其是在當下,，我們面臨著公共健康和經(jīng)濟上的挑戰(zhàn),，而在我看來，目前的局勢表明我們的國際合作還遠遠不夠,。所以,，如果我們可以建立像新開發(fā)銀行這樣的多邊發(fā)展機構(gòu)，把不同的國家聚集在一起,，就共同關(guān)心的問題進行合作,，這就是體現(xiàn)合作、協(xié)作和齊心協(xié)力的價值的最佳實例,。

MT: Thank you very much for the opportunity. Collaboration, for me, means cooperation. It means working together. And when you have, at the New Development Bank, countries as Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, some of the most important emerging markets in the world, looking for opportunities in infrastructure, in sustainable development, that creates a very important platform for international cooperation. Especially at the current juncture when we have challenges in health, when we have challenges in the economy, and it seems to me that the current juncture is featuring a deficit in terms of international cooperation. So, if we can have multilateral development institutions, such as the NDB, bringing these countries that are so different together to work on issues of common interest, that is the best practical example of the value of cooperation, collaboration and working together.

高大偉：是的,。你剛剛提到了金磚國家，所以人們也經(jīng)常稱新開發(fā)銀行為金磚銀行,。但嚴格意義上講,，它叫新開發(fā)銀行，在名稱里有“新開發(fā)”三個字,。你認為在你所做的工作中,，“新開發(fā)”這一概念意味著什么？

DG:Exactly. And you mentioned the BRICS countries. So, people call your institution the BRICS bank. But this is technically the New Development Bank, and in New Development Bank, there is “New Development”. And in your vision of your work, what does this notion of “New Development” mean?

馬科斯·特洛伊喬： 的確,，作為一所由新興經(jīng)濟體建立的機構(gòu),，我們是“新”的。但就我們的追求而言,，“新”的概念還包含著很多不同的維度,。其中之一就是要發(fā)展成一個更加成熟完善的機構(gòu)。主權(quán)貸款很重要,，但除此之外,，還必須要有其他更具二十一世紀性質(zhì)的金融服務，才能解決二十一世紀的問題,。另外,，我們在發(fā)展思維上也必須做到“新”。傳統(tǒng)的發(fā)展方式是將實體基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施和智能基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施分開的,。我認為在未來發(fā)展中,，我們還會進一步創(chuàng)新,，我們會把涉水衛(wèi)生、鐵路,、能源等傳統(tǒng)問題與其他元素結(jié)合起來,，比如連通性和第四次工業(yè)革命的基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施，為人才新時代提供了基建要素,。如果可以做到這些,，我們就能成為真正的新開發(fā)銀行。

MT: It is true that we are new in the sense that it is an institution set up by emerging economies. But I think in terms of our ambition, becoming new has many other different dimensions. One of them, of course, has to do with becoming more of a complex and sophisticated institution. So, sovereign-backed loans are important, but there are other things, there are other financial services that are more of a 21st century nature that have to be offered to tackle 21st century problems. We must also have to be new in terms of new development thinking. There is a traditional approach to development that separates physical infrastructure from smart infrastructure. And I believe that going forward, we are going to be new in the ways that we can bring together problems that are traditionally classified as water sanitation, railroads, energy, but with other elements like connectivity, the infrastructure for the Fourth Industrial Revolution being there, providing the infrastructure elements for the new age of talent. If we are able to do that, then we are truly going to become a New Development Bank.

高大偉：談到發(fā)展,，人們自然就會想到進步,。你認為合作是進步最重要的基礎(chǔ)嗎？

DG:Talking about development, clearly, one thinks about progress. Would you say that collaboration is the very foundation for progress?

馬科斯·特洛伊喬： 是的,，合作是進步最重要的基礎(chǔ)之一,，沒有合作就難以取得進展。因為沒有合作,，首先限制了參與者的數(shù)量,，其次也限制了地理范圍。我的意思是,，無論是否愿意,，我們都生活在一個星球上。顯然,，當我們合作時,，所做出的決策可能影響到數(shù)十億的人,。所以無論你來自怎樣的文化背景,、處于怎樣的地理位置，都需要以主動,、開放的姿態(tài)為共同關(guān)心的問題做出努力,。

MT: It's one of them. It's very difficult to make headway without cooperation. First, because you limit the outreach of the number of players involved. And second, you end up limiting the very geographical scope. I mean, like it or not, we're living in one planet. And obviously, when we're working together, our decisions may impact billions of people. So, it's very important that no matter what your civilizational background is, what your geography is, that you're willing and open to work on those issues in which common interests can be shared.

高大偉：十分感謝我們能有這次交流，這是為“合之道”系列錄制的,。你本人,、你的背景、你領(lǐng)導的新開發(fā)銀行,，都是合作時代的美好象征,。非常感謝。謝謝,。

DG:Thank you very much for this conversation. It has been done for a series whose name is A Time of Collaboration. And you, your background, and your institution, you are wonderful symbols of this time of collaboration. So, thank you very much. Obrigado.

馬科斯·特洛伊喬：  謝謝,，我很榮幸。新開發(fā)銀行的宗旨就是合作,。

MT: Thank you so much. It was my pleasure. The New Development Bank is all about working together.