合之道·訪談 | 對話意大利總統(tǒng)藝術(shù)遺產(chǎn)顧問路易·戈達爾 談合作交流意義
來源：法國里昂商學(xué)院時間：2022-02-10
進入“后新冠疫情時代”,，全球化發(fā)展面臨著變局，需要全球共同努力不斷開拓合作，促進經(jīng)濟增長和社會發(fā)展的新局,。
當(dāng)我們不得不面對疫情時,，“韌性”的概念非常恰當(dāng)?shù)馗爬宋覀兯仨毦邆涞钠焚|(zhì),，如今我們要做的是以更系統(tǒng)性的方式探索“合作”的概念,。當(dāng)下,，協(xié)同發(fā)展是大勢所趨，能否切實開展深化,、平等地合作,，在當(dāng)前來看應(yīng)該是合作深入推進并實現(xiàn)互利共贏的關(guān)鍵。中歐論壇創(chuàng)始人,、法國里昂商學(xué)院高級顧問高大偉先生在準(zhǔn)備《中國與世界第二卷》期間,，獨家對話眾多知名政客、學(xué)者,、企業(yè)家,，就疫情后的合作發(fā)展法則展開談?wù)摗?
近期我們將陸續(xù)推出為期十期的《合之道》系列訪談，繼《竹之韌》后的在后疫情時代背景下的高端訪談,。
路易·戈達爾
Louis Godart
三任意大利總統(tǒng)文化藝術(shù)遺產(chǎn)顧問
Cultural Advisor to Three Italian Presidents
意大利籍考古學(xué)家,，是三任意大利總統(tǒng)的文化藝術(shù)遺產(chǎn)顧問。他是邁錫尼考古學(xué)和語文學(xué)專家,，在地中海文明研究領(lǐng)域著有29本書和141篇學(xué)術(shù)論文,。
Mr. Godart, an Italian archaeologist, has served as a cultural advisor to three Italian Presidents. He is an expert in Mycenaean archaeology and philology and the author of 29 books and 141 scientific articles on topics related to the civilizations of the Mediterranean.
高大偉：我們都對絲綢之路懷有同樣的熱情,。我還記得這個展覽是我們一起合作,，一起實現(xiàn)的，就是在意大利總統(tǒng)府,。你也是研究絲綢之路的專家,，我想問，為什么說絲綢之路的理念象征著合作交流的精神,？
David Gosset: We share the same passion for the Silk Road. I remember an exhibition where we cooperated together in the Italian Presidential Palace. As you are an expert of the Silk Road, I wanted to ask you why we could say that the notion of Silk Road symbolizes the spirit of cooperation and exchange?
路易·戈達爾： 很明顯,，我們正處于全球均勢進程的開端，其中歐亞將發(fā)揮領(lǐng)軍作用,。中國預(yù)計在“一帶一路”開展的十年內(nèi),，沿線國家之間的貿(mào)易往來增長一倍以上，以實現(xiàn)年貿(mào)易額2.5萬億美元的目標(biāo),。并且,，非洲也會參與其中，顯然非洲將得益于這樣的交流,，同時這也對世界和平,，以及非洲自身的發(fā)展大有裨益。
Louis Godart: It is clear that we are on the beginning of a progress of the global balance, in which Eurasia will play a leading role. China predicts that within 10 years of "The Belt and Road Initiative", commercial ties between the countries positioned along the New Silk Road should more than double in order to reach a target of $2.5 trillion. Since Africa will also be involved, it will obviously benefit fromthese exchanges. It is extremely important for the peace in the world and for the promotion of Africa itself.
高大偉：你提到了習(xí)近平總書記在2013年提出的“一帶一路”倡議,。我們認(rèn)為這是一項非常重要的戰(zhàn)略,，它重新闡釋了古絲綢之路。當(dāng)然正如你所說,，這也關(guān)乎歐亞合作：歐洲與亞洲,，歐洲與中國,。但同時，這也是一條連接非洲,、亞洲和歐洲的軸線,。這對我們所生存的世界至關(guān)重要，決不能忘卻非洲大陸,。非洲已被涵蓋在“一帶一路”的規(guī)劃中。教授,，如你所知,，中國還有另一項非常重要的倡議，也可以說是思想或愿景,，那就是人類命運共同體,。我認(rèn)為這一思想在國外沒有受到足夠的關(guān)注，但無疑這是非常重要的,。你認(rèn)為中國的復(fù)興對人類命運共同體有什么作用,？除了這個概念是由中國提出以外，有何切實意義,？
David Gosset: You mentioned "The Belt and Road Initiative" of President Xi Jinping, that he put forward in 2013. We can think of it as a very important strategy as a reinterpretation of the ancient Silk Road. And of course, as you were saying, this is about Eurasian continuities: the relationship between Europe and China, Europe and Asia, but this is also an Afro-Eurasian axis. It is very important, in the world in which we live, not to forget the African continent. Africa is a part of "The Belt and Road" Project. Also, as you know very well, China has another very important initiative, or I would say idea or vision, the vision of a community of shared future for mankind. This is also something that I believe we do not discuss enough outside of China, but this is a very important vision. How do you see the Chinese renaissance contributing to this community of shared future for mankind, beyond the fact that China is putting forward the concept, but in a concrete way?
路易·戈達爾： 今天的中國已成為一個能夠影響全球經(jīng)濟的大國,。中國的歷史縱橫千年，從中國的國際聲望,、璀璨文化和發(fā)展活力來看,，在世界上的許多國家中，我認(rèn)為中國是一個在許多方面都值得被效仿的范例,。在21世紀(jì)的開端,，中歐關(guān)系因其豐厚的歷史和未來的機遇而進一步加深，這也能夠解鎖雙方的潛能,，實現(xiàn)共同利益,，攜手改變世界。15年前我到訪中國,，為錢皮總統(tǒng)的國事訪問做準(zhǔn)備,。期間我與許多中國同事交流，他們對我說,，“不難發(fā)現(xiàn)中意兩國之間共通的文化與利益,。因為我們曾是兩大帝國的締造者?！备呓淌?，西方國家可以從中國文化中學(xué)到很多，同時中國也可以從歐洲文化中學(xué)到很多 ,。
孔子和蘇格拉底是人類文明的兩座豐碑,。我可以舉幾個例子,，來解釋中國是如何豐富歐洲文化的。比如說指南針,、造紙術(shù),、數(shù)學(xué)、宇宙學(xué),、藥理學(xué),。再比如說，2015年的諾貝爾醫(yī)學(xué)獎頒給了中國科學(xué)家屠呦呦,，以肯定她對瘧疾防治所做的貢獻,。這意味著邊界是完全可以被跨越的，穿過烏拉爾山脈的南部,，中國,、遠東地區(qū)和遙遠的西方，數(shù)千年前就尋得了合作的機會,。很重要的一點是,，歐洲通過與亞洲的合作蓬勃發(fā)展，對于亞洲來說,，也是一樣,。
Louis Godart: The China of today is a power able of influencing the world economy. Its history spans thousands of years, and along with its international prestige, its great culture and its dynamism, China is a country, which out of many in the world, is an example to me, imitated in many ways. Now, at the beginning of the 21st century, China and Europe relations are strengthened by their history and future possibilities, which can unlock their dynamical potential and common interest in alliance to make a change to the world. When I was in China 15 years ago, preparing the state visit of President Ciampi, I had many discussions with Chinese colleagues who told me, "It is easy to find common culture and interest between China and Italy, because we are the producers of the two most important empires of the world". Western countries have a lot to learn from the Chinese culture, and China has a lot to learn from the European culture.
Confucius and Socrates are two monuments of the humanity. Let me take only a few examples to demonstrate how China was able to enrich Europe. Let me mention compass, paper, mathematics, cosmography, pharmacology. Let me mention, for instance, in 2015, the Nobel Prize for Medicine to the Chinese researcher, Youyou Tu, for her work on malaria. That means that across the extremely permeable boundary, south of the Ural Mountains, China, the Far East and the Far West, per millennium and millennium, had the possibility to collaborate. It is extremely important to say that Europe has been strengthened together with Asia, and the same for Asia.
高大偉：非常感謝你的回答。你提到了中國和中華文明,，千年來一直豐富著人類文明?，F(xiàn)在我想問一個很難的問題。從長遠考慮的話,，你是否相信進步,？我強調(diào)從長期角度來看。如果相信,，那么合作在人類文明的進步上扮演著什么樣的角色,？我知道這是一個相當(dāng)復(fù)雜的問題。
David Gosset: Thank you very much. Because you talked about how China, the Chinese civilization, contributed for millennia to enrich mankind, now I would like to ask you an extremely difficult question. Do you believe in progress in the long-term? Again, with a focus on "long term" in mind. And if so, what is the role of collaboration for humanity to progress? I know it is a very complicated question.
路易·戈達爾： 高教授,，我確實對進步有充分的信心,。人類的所有故事都是進步的證明，從周口店洞穴內(nèi)發(fā)現(xiàn)火開始,，那已是150萬到50萬年前了,。但作為歷史學(xué)家，我總堅持一點,，無論何時何地：進步的可能,，是要歸功于不同國家和民族之間的合作的。
要實現(xiàn)合作,，要在世界上的每個個體間實現(xiàn)合作,，就必須擁有和平的環(huán)境,。我認(rèn)為歐洲與中國的合作要秉承和平的精神，來向其他國家展示,，和平是推動發(fā)展的唯一途徑,。
Louis Godart: Professor Gosset, I do believe indeed in progress. All story of the mankind is the proof of the progresses realized from the time of the discovery of fire in the cave of Zhoukoudian between 1.5 million and 500,000 years ago. But as an historian, I always like to insist on one point, always and everywhere: progresses were possible, thanks to the collaboration between different countries and nations.
And this collaboration is only possible between us, between all the women and all the men of the world, blows a wind of peace. I think that Europe and China have to collaborate in a spirit of peace to demonstrate to all the other nations that peace is the only instrument to promote progresses.
高大偉：施以正確理解，文化間不會碰撞沖突,，而會相互促進,。進步的前提是合作。這是在歷史上得以應(yīng)驗的道理,，如今依然適用,。你也倡導(dǎo)合作，一同面對我們共同的挑戰(zhàn),。在未來也是如此。
David Gosset: When they are properly understood, cultures do not clash; they cross-fertilize. What does progress presuppose is the idea of collaboration. It has been true in the past. It is very true today. And you have urged us to collaborate to face the many challenges that we are facing all together. And it will be true for the future.
路易·戈達爾：秉承和平的精神展開合作,。
Louis Godart: Collaboration in a spirit of peace.